tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post1661732372432666735..comments2024-03-10T12:04:17.661-07:00Comments on The Oracle at Delphi: Waking up in the gutter...Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10119008505905401707noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-52563651007724787512005-06-07T05:34:54.000-07:002005-06-07T05:34:54.000-07:00@Chee Wee Chua Well put. As I was reading all the ...@Chee Wee Chua <br><br>Well put. As I was reading all the posts, I was wondering the exact same thing... Since there are so many preferences, and since were taking about a product addressed to developers, why not let anybody have it his/her way.geppa deenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-36246385159427379242005-05-25T06:47:45.000-07:002005-05-25T06:47:45.000-07:00Allen,My first suggestion was going to be to put t...Allen,<br><br><br>My first suggestion was going to be to put the blue dots directly over the line number dots, then I thought, why not just make the line numbers blue instead of putting a blue dot on them. <br><br><br>The next logical progression would be to make them red for a breakpoint. Maybe bold too. The break point is already fairly obvious because the whole line is colored.<br><br><br>I would keep the execution point as a green arrow and bookmark icons. <br><br><br>Maybe alternatively you could colorize the background instead of colorizing the text. I would like to see some variations on that.<br><br><br>Also, if you are going to only display line numbers on every 10th line, I would ALWAYS display the line number on a folded line, maybe on the line after it too or instead. That way you would know what line it was even though it was folded.<br><br><br>While we are in the gutter, something that would be really nice is the ability to close a folding block from within the block. Either by clicking the line in the gutter or clicking on the end of the block. That is probably in order of perfered method. The right click fold menu is a huge help, thanks!<br><br><br>-Jim McKeeth<br><br>http://www.bsdg.org/ - http://www.mckeeth.org/Jim McKeethhttp://www.bsdg.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-44963606779746330932005-05-25T04:08:47.000-07:002005-05-25T04:08:47.000-07:00Line numbers - the first thing I turn off in the e...Line numbers - the first thing I turn off in the editor options :). Anyway I like the new overlapping order for the blue dots, the red dots and bookmarks.<br><br><br>I am actually more interested what sofware do you use to run your internal blog and internal wiki ?Rossen Assenovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-2875300308156236312005-05-25T04:16:12.000-07:002005-05-25T04:16:12.000-07:00And another one: when you replace numbers by "...And another one: when you replace numbers by "." and "-", it will be harder to get/guess the line number when you fold a portion of code as it is likely to remove some of the 10th milestones.François GAILLARDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-33092553888329474182005-05-25T04:19:16.000-07:002005-05-25T04:19:16.000-07:00Nick, So are you willing to give up text real est...Nick,<br><br> So are you willing to give up text real estate so that the line numbers are not overlapped? The general consensus here is that the text portion is more precious and needs to be preserved as much as possible.Allen Bauernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-41354207977961420812005-05-25T04:20:31.000-07:002005-05-25T04:20:31.000-07:00François, That is a good point, however the line ...François,<br><br> That is a good point, however the line number reference in the status bar will *always* be correct and show the line/column of the caret location.Allen Bauernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-13235863237544423432005-05-25T04:31:02.000-07:002005-05-25T04:31:02.000-07:00<<We determined that the main cause of fear...<<<br><br>We determined that the main cause of fear and loathing regarding the Delphi 2005 gutter was that it was actually packed with too much information. It was cluttered which lead to the general feeling of being disorganized. <br><br>>><br><br><br>I think you are wrong there. The problem is clutter indeed, but the main problem is that items overlap, i.e. one item covers another. My request: if the user makes the gutter wide enough (AFAIK, this is a setting in the options), make sure the items do not overlap, i.e. are moved apart. Only make them overlap if the gutter is not wide enough, or has its standard width.Rudy Velthuisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-84749746395016632202005-05-25T05:22:51.000-07:002005-05-25T05:22:51.000-07:00Sorry Allen,But I have to ask this: did you try pu...Sorry Allen,<br><br>But I have to ask this: did you try putting line numbers INSIDE the blue dots, making those wider and elliptical?<br><br><br>AndrewAndrea Raimondinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-48113660801740174872005-05-25T07:30:32.000-07:002005-05-25T07:30:32.000-07:00I was going to sugggest the same thing as Jim. For...I was going to sugggest the same thing as Jim. Forget most of the icons and change the color of the numbers.Richard Hollerichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-41020295416550053372005-05-25T08:24:40.000-07:002005-05-25T08:24:40.000-07:00Allen,I actually thought about color blindness whe...Allen,<br><br><br>I actually thought about color blindness when I was making the suggestion. <br><br><br>The line numbers really should be visible. Putting the dots on top obscures the usability of line numbers and makes it look really ugly / cluttered.<br><br><br>I like the idea of maybe making the blue or red dots circles around the line numbers instead. For the break points you would make them hexagons around the number so the shape and color both show the state.<br><br><br>I know making customizable options is a pain, maybe to let people choose between chaning number color or showing an icon. For those wanting an icon you could have a second gutter, like a few other people suggested.<br><br><br>-Jim McKeeth<br><br>http://www.bsdg.org/2005/05/gutters-numbers-and-colors.shtmlJim McKeethhttp://www.bsdg.org/2005/05/gutters-numbers-and-colors.shtmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-10971524271154142352005-05-25T08:42:48.000-07:002005-05-25T08:42:48.000-07:00Mark,I would suggest that if there were 3 gutters ...Mark,<br><br><br>I would suggest that if there were 3 gutters that it display at least the bookmarks gutter dynamically. So if there are no bookmarks in use it hides the 3rd gutter. Maybe for people who like the layered look you could let them combine them together.<br><br><br>-JimJim McKeethhttp://www.bsdg.org/2005/05/gutters-numbers-and-colors.shtmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-291566723609127412005-05-26T02:27:04.000-07:002005-05-26T02:27:04.000-07:00If you had a verticle bar instead of a blue ball i...If you had a verticle bar instead of a blue ball it would take up less horizontal space and possibly link up with the lines vertically surrounding it. <br><br><br>You could even re-use the gutter borders.<br><br><br>By the way the Delphi 2005 IDE has made my life much more productive. I enjoy using it and it is easily the best Ive ever used.David Championnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-51674729400934590822005-05-26T04:18:56.000-07:002005-05-26T04:18:56.000-07:00Hmm. The only-every-10 line number display with a ...Hmm. The only-every-10 line number display with a hash at the 5 is a *fantastic* idea. It conveys just enough information to trick your brain into supplying the rest. :)Robert Westnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-13674220141464377612005-05-26T10:01:00.000-07:002005-05-26T10:01:00.000-07:00Allen,I think maybe put the icons on the leftside ...Allen,<br><br><br>I think maybe put the icons on the leftside and the linenumber on the right side of the editor is a good idea.<br><br><br>Because in the editor current line is highlighted and it will not difficult to see the linenumber on the right.<br><br><br>That just an idea.<br><br>My English is poor, so sorry about that.AnionFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-76167042474100701042005-05-27T10:18:32.000-07:002005-05-27T10:18:32.000-07:00my vote: remove the blue balls and keep the full l...my vote: remove the blue balls and keep the full line number text.<br><br><br>I like the idea of playing with the line number font, color or some kind of background shape. Using thin blue vertical bars instead of balls is a possibility too.<br><br><br>But again, I agree with those that say this is a small issue, there are more important things that Delphi needs to address IMO.Brian Moelkhttp://www.brainendeavor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-6905906696454789622005-06-05T16:54:07.000-07:002005-06-05T16:54:07.000-07:00Allen, have you considered exposing an OTAPI for t...Allen, have you considered exposing an OTAPI for this so that more advanced developers can customize the drawing?Chee Wee Chuahttp://blogs.codegear.com/chewynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-10046760804555542532005-05-25T03:55:19.000-07:002005-05-25T03:55:19.000-07:00Hi Allen,I'm sure you'll get a lot of diff...Hi Allen,<br><br>I'm sure you'll get a lot of different opinions on the gutter and line numbering...<br><br>I like the line numbers and because they are faded behind the blue dots or other icons they don't bother me.<br><br>I understand that the dimming might not work 100% for some configurations.<br><br>But with the new design - your screenshot #3 with the execution line on the 10th line shows exactly the drawback - you have a good chance not to see the line number anymore if you have icons on the 10th lines bearing the numbering.<br><br>Your example displays 14 lines of code and nobody can tell what line numbers they have.<br><br>So I suggest you change the binary option show lines Yes/No into a ternary one Show Line Numbers All/10th/None.François GAILLARDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-55653805477977097012005-05-25T04:03:39.000-07:002005-05-25T04:03:39.000-07:00Allen -- I'm begging you, please, PLEASE -- do...Allen -- I'm begging you, please, PLEASE -- don't cover up the line numbers, even with the dot/dask scheme you've come up with.Nick Hodgeshttp://www.lemanix.com/nicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-22298257923824786652005-05-25T04:23:30.000-07:002005-05-25T04:23:30.000-07:00Rossen, The blog is running WordPress (http://wor...Rossen,<br><br> The blog is running WordPress (http://wordpress.org/) and the wiki is running MediaWiki (http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/).<br><br><br>You can ask more about them over on Steve's blog since he unofficially maintains that server for the team.Allen Bauernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-7182239690546151032005-05-25T04:38:43.000-07:002005-05-25T04:38:43.000-07:00Rudy, You're saying the same thing here. My ...Rudy,<br><br><br> You're saying the same thing here. My "clutter" comment was talking about the forced overlap regardless of gutter width. If there is enough room, we don't overlap them. The breakpoint/execution point are a special case where the overlap is by design by virtue of their relationship. The idea here is to show the most important information on top. It is far more important to show where the current execution point is than whether or not a breakpoint is there. I've observed various other environments and they also tend to overlap the breakpoint and execution point glyphs as well. The bookmark glyph shouldn't be overlapped unless there is not enough gutter width.Allen Bauernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-82543211150289676932005-05-25T04:48:10.000-07:002005-05-25T04:48:10.000-07:00All I want to say is this is one of those things t...All I want to say is this is one of those things that in my opinion just don't deserve the kind of attention you're giving it.<br><br><br>Please make a decision and move on to something else. I find it hard to think of anything that has less impact on my decision to upgrade from Delphi 7 than how line numbers are displayed in the gutter.<br><br>ARMtech Usernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-85930391878585088032005-05-25T05:06:36.000-07:002005-05-25T05:06:36.000-07:00ARMtech, It only looks like we've given this ...ARMtech,<br><br><br> It only looks like we've given this a whole bunch of attention since there is this blog post. Also, there have been a few vocal "friends of Borland" that have weighed in on the issue and it is a relatively innocuous item to play around with publically. Frankly, Steve and I spent all of about 1/2 hour on this late yesterday afternoon and played with a few ideas. We had a hard stop at about 5:30pm since we both have families we like to see every once in a while ;-). I then checked in the changes we made this morning and will appear in internal builds later today.<br><br>Allen Bauernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-24330667635507393412005-05-25T05:40:39.000-07:002005-05-25T05:40:39.000-07:00Look at how Castilia does the line numbering in D7...Look at how Castilia does the line numbering in D7. It adds a line number gutter and leaves the "decorations" where the D7 IDE puts them. <br><br><br>Make it work like that in D2005 and I'd be happier than a puppy dog with two tails. <br><br><br>I'm more than willing to give up a small bit of real estate for that.John Westernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-86159371948361745322005-05-25T06:28:59.000-07:002005-05-25T06:28:59.000-07:00Allen,As you probable know, VS uses 2 gutters. 1 f...Allen,<br><br><br>As you probable know, VS uses 2 gutters. 1 for images and another separate one for line numbers. I really couldn't care less about blue dots or execution points painted on the side and I never use bookmarks. But I *NEED* my line numbers. It is the first thing I turn on and I leave it on.<br><br><br>Probably just one minor opinion of many.<br><br><br>-- Robert<br><br><br>Robert Kozakhttp://www.dealerdesktop.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-36111012466874280842005-05-25T07:05:25.000-07:002005-05-25T07:05:25.000-07:00a> dearth is a noun meaning "scarcity"...a> dearth is a noun meaning "scarcity", not an adjective: "the dearth of feedback..." would be the correct usage<br><br><br>b> I think Jim's suggestion is best, use color to combine several messages in the same space - my other thought was to have a tooltip show up when the mouse is moved over the gutter showing line# and all other infoTory Jacobsnoreply@blogger.com