tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post1276212777051420911..comments2024-03-10T12:04:17.661-07:00Comments on The Oracle at Delphi: Whither or not Delphi....Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10119008505905401707noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-37623095550110961802005-02-05T22:14:04.000-08:002005-02-05T22:14:04.000-08:00last post, shows that every community has sense in...last post, shows that every community has sense in relation to Borland in Delphi8/2005.Paulo Cesarhttp://www.lidercomp.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-9442944416107591592005-02-10T00:15:27.000-08:002005-02-10T00:15:27.000-08:00Allenyou made good points. I feel the main reason ...Allen<br><br><br>you made good points. I feel the main reason why people keep bringing up VS is the robust OTA it supports. If the IDE for Delphi achieved that level , this talk would die down.<br><br>If you surpassed it , the posibilities are immensense.<br><br><br>Also your achive list is annoying lol, it sorts by month then year and not the other way around!!<br><br><br>Best wishes<br><br>joe <br><br>Joe Melehttp://blogs.slcdug.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-39266939406392433092005-02-02T12:34:07.000-08:002005-02-02T12:34:07.000-08:00Hi Alleninteresting. What about Eclipse?GrahameHi Allen<br><br><br>interesting. What about Eclipse?<br><br><br>GrahameGrahame Grievenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-86590520010301528962005-02-02T13:24:39.000-08:002005-02-02T13:24:39.000-08:00The reason so many people are posting the problem ...The reason so many people are posting the problem is Delphi developers are sick of waiting for Delphi to catch up with the rest of the development world. The amount of time we had to wait for .NET support was crazy and the end result was buggy and useless (crash, crash, crash, crash). <br><br><br>Visual Studio is a slick editor with more productivity features. The standard edition of Visual C# has more features than Delphi 8/2005 Enterprise and is more reliable to work with 8 hours a day. Delphi has become a waste of money for todays professional developer and Borland need to look at lifting their game. <br><br><br>DavidDDDD - David the Disgruntled Delphi Developernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-48775556268214716682005-02-02T22:46:30.000-08:002005-02-02T22:46:30.000-08:00I have both VS and Delphi and much prefer Delphi. ...I have both VS and Delphi and much prefer Delphi. Though I must agree with "DDDD" about the delay in *certain* productivity features in Delphi.JQLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-8143012147680202532005-02-03T00:07:43.000-08:002005-02-03T00:07:43.000-08:00So, DDDD... tell us how you really feel ;-) I do,...So, DDDD... tell us how you really feel ;-) I do, however, think you are speaking in a bit of hyperbole, WRT VS standard.Allen Bauernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-14582484361439037432005-02-03T13:38:50.000-08:002005-02-03T13:38:50.000-08:00furtheron,I see Eiffel-software (www.eiffel.com) a...furtheron,<br><br><br>I see Eiffel-software (www.eiffel.com) as a customer friendly role model. They offer both their own IDE (EiffelStudio) and a plugin for VS.Net (Eiffel Envision). From a customer point of view it is all about choice, the freedom to choose the IDE you would like to work with, and still have your preferred language available.<br><br><br>In a perfect world, Borland would offer its own Galileo-based IDE and in addition Delphi-plugins for VS.Net and Eclipse.<br><br><br>In reality, this is probably not going to happen...Peter Sleuthnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-32346922597852859222005-02-03T07:57:56.000-08:002005-02-03T07:57:56.000-08:00Allen,You are right on! Borland has chose, created...Allen,<br><br><br>You are right on! Borland has chose, created, and controls much more of their course vs. piggybacking on Microsoft. Great job!<br><br><br>DDDD - <br><br>While Delphi might be missing some useful features that VS has, the converse is true too. Got Eco? Got refactoring? Not yet in VS. Delphi has it _now_.<br><br><br>Arun singh - <br><br>Look in Delphi help for numerous topics on building web applications in .NET and Win32. And since you have used D2-7 for web development, you will be happy to know WebBroker and WebSnap are in Delphi 2005. When you are ready for IntraWeb and ASP.NET, they will be there.<br><br><br>Remember, you can use a non-Delphi ASP.NET book because ASP.NET is a framework, not a language. Not too difficult to translate C# into Delphi. You can also get the Delphi.Net Developers Guide which has an ASP.NET chapter or two.<br><br>http://tinyurl.com/6j39gKyle Millernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-41841488202253556102005-02-03T18:02:26.000-08:002005-02-03T18:02:26.000-08:00Visual Delphi?I think not. First VB x then VD 1V...Visual Delphi?<br><br><br>I think not. First VB x then VD 1<br><br><br>VD 1 <br><br><br>How would one market a product that unfortunate title.<br><br><br>Ralphralph knighthttp://rknight@labyrinth.net.aunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-20246198259133183612005-03-01T14:42:50.000-08:002005-03-01T14:42:50.000-08:00I have used Turbo Pascal/C++, Delphi 5,6,7,2005.As...I have used Turbo Pascal/C++, Delphi 5,6,7,2005.<br><br><br>As far as quality goes, none of the Delphi versions I have used are a patch on the Turbo Pascal IDEs.<br><br><br>I like the idea of Delphi but have repeatedly found in lacking as our project has grown bigger. The help files and documentation are paltry. The language is verbose and the debugger is very very flaky. The form-inheritance has been a stumbling block for us. Changes to a base DFM file do not reflect in the DFM files of the derived forms. We have found very serious bugs in the VCL. We have had to fix almost all of our third-party controls and the some of the VCL. We have been unable to automate our builds with DCC32. The command-line compiler complains of syntax errors where the IDE compiler does not. The larger our project has grown, the more trouble we have had upgrading to newer versions of third party controls. We have to change the DFMs along with the PAS files. We cannot depend on the compiler to report problems in the DFM files. The compiler, linker and debugger repeatedly crash during builds.<br><br><br>I hold no opinion on the future of Delphi. But if you could spare some resources, please endeavour to address these issues in forthcoming releases of your Delphi product.<br><br><br>We do not have an urgent need for features such as ECO and refactoring. All I would very much like to see is a robust compiler, linker and debugger.<br><br><br>Thank youAgnosticnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-64517515693737698682005-03-20T02:15:44.000-08:002005-03-20T02:15:44.000-08:00Thats ok, we dumped Delphi in favour of Oberon and...Thats ok, we dumped Delphi in favour of Oberon and looking at the successor to Oberon next. It integrates with VS.NET very well and its a very capable language. <br><br><br>We already have skills and investments in the VS.NET IDE including our own tools that integrate with it. We dont need another VB type IDE ala Delphi.<br><br><br>Bye bye Delphi in your own IDE.<br><br><br>mehnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-87421522475530495582005-03-20T02:17:02.000-08:002005-03-20T02:17:02.000-08:00Use VS.NET or Eclipse or die in your own IDE.If we...Use VS.NET or Eclipse or die in your own IDE.<br><br><br>If we want a non standard IDE we would use Notepad.Standardise or dienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-84634966467662264472005-10-05T06:47:36.000-07:002005-10-05T06:47:36.000-07:00HelloPretty good a blog, that`s the stuff ! :)Good...Hello<br><br>Pretty good a blog, that`s the stuff ! :)<br><br>Good Luck<br><br>Regards Sex FotkiSex Fotkihttp://sex-maratonczyk.blog.onet.pl/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-77128330213127739322005-02-02T11:16:36.000-08:002005-02-02T11:16:36.000-08:00HiI cannot see WHY anybody would want to encumber ...Hi<br><br><br>I cannot see WHY anybody would want to encumber Delphi with VS!!!!!<br><br><br>Delphi is of itself a completely useful and creative "tool". I have never ever been a fan of overly slow an bloated software. I detest the use of some software that needs another piece of software to complete it's functionality - a dll is my preferred limit and this is only due to Windows. I fail to see the need VBX's OCX's ADO's DAO's ODBC's etc etc. (Yes, I know ODBC did help the DB world). I see them as "fixes" for the shortcommings in Microsoft's development process. Compounding this was/is the continual change of these "fixes" consequntly causing more and more fixups by/for the developer.<br><br><br>I selcted Delphi for the super development tool that it is. I progressed through various interations of the BASIC language - including VB and AccessVB.<br><br><br>Delphi (IMHO) is much quicker and more able out of the box (for me) than another language. I would hate to see it "kneecapped" by the diverse range of progammers at MS, after all they (MS) cannot really tie their own development into a fully coherent package - I guess this facet can now be covered by the fact that there are way too many people in the MS development team(s), and there are only so many ways you can achieve a particular result. Take Windows itself for example. We had flat buttons (win 3.x), 3D buttons (Win 9.x) and now coloured 3D buttons - with the option of Win 9.x buttons. I mean, yes it looks nice BUT it still only does the job of a button!<br><br><br>regards<br><br><br>PeterPeter Sandersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-29701212538456198092005-02-02T12:55:30.000-08:002005-02-02T12:55:30.000-08:00Microsoft is too big and has more concern for othe...Microsoft is too big and has more concern for other things than what developers need, which is why it's not safe to depend on them. Borland has just the right strategy to exploit Microsoft platforms but not put all the eggs in one basket. Everything Microsoft does is irredeemably messy, and unsatisfactory, and well I have to say half-assed. It's not that I like Delphi with religious devotion, but I have never, ever been disappointed or depressed by it, and I still feel as excited by it as I did for version 1. It's just got it. That's really what I feel, and believe, and I do know some other languages. None of them has ever appealed to me this way. So to conclude, don't give away the shop. That is my state of the Delphi nation address.Steve Morannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-50651435168361453122005-02-03T04:27:11.000-08:002005-02-03T04:27:11.000-08:00I have been using Delphi since version 2 up to 7. ...I have been using Delphi since version 2 up to 7. Well I learned Delphi on my own using books, manuals and help. Well up to now we were into windows development world. Now suddenly the web thing caught up. Well Borland came up with Delhi 8 and Delphi 2005 as answer for web development. But guess what.. it suddenly looks like a Greek language. Hmm.. so what did Borland did wrong. Well there is no book, no manual not even good help files which guides enough towards web development. I am honestly thinking of moving to C#. Trust me, if this is how Borland functions.. then in another few years there won't be Delphi any more .. Sadly ... RegardsArun singhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-19164570112704143872005-02-03T12:10:38.000-08:002005-02-03T12:10:38.000-08:00I for sure won't be switching from Delphi 7.0 ...I for sure won't be switching from Delphi 7.0 until newer versions get CodeRush support again. I'm currently playing with VS.Net + CRush and it's not bad, unlike previous VS encarnations.John Dempseynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-14783826646688253342005-02-03T22:36:22.000-08:002005-02-03T22:36:22.000-08:00Current Delphi release is unstable. It's sad t...Current Delphi release is unstable. It's sad to say, but it is.<br><br><br>It's bad to feel like a beta tester, using commercial product, you have paid for.<br><br><br>Borland should give 2005 for a small amount of money (if, you guys so hury to roll it out), ask customers to forgive you for delay and work, work and still work on polishing product.<br><br>We can wait. <br><br>The worst thing is ask people to pay for a half ready product. And you guys did it twice in row. MS realize it very well. The do not hesitate postpone the product and have a lot of betas. It's their marketing strategy.<br><br><br>Seems like Borland doesn't understand that.<br><br>You have to do something or product will be dead in the close future.<br><br><br>We can talk a lot about thechnical advantages, but management always measure money only (IMHO). For them Borland is far behind MS on NET platform, and it really is, because MS in in charge, not Borland.<br><br><br>On the other hand D2005 Win32 hasn't anything we can't do in D7. Significant i mean. Not a bells and wistles.<br><br><br>We evaluated D2005, and reported to management that it is great, but have some problems. We tryed to be polite and temperate as much as possible. But upgrade program is wrapped up.<br><br><br>For me, Delphi IDE is one of the best on the market! It's definitely better then VS. But Borland still need to show it to the people somehow.Valtasarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-90532523853286128172005-02-08T04:06:05.000-08:002005-02-08T04:06:05.000-08:00Allen,I'm sure you all have considered this, b...Allen,<br><br><br>I'm sure you all have considered this, but I'll mention it anyway: I'll bet if Borland went to the MS VS team and said, "hey, we're thinking of dropping our IDE and using yours instead," a lot of doors would open. Your post kind of implies that you would have to integrate with VS as if you were just another dime-a-dozen GUI widget vendor. I would bet you could have a very serious discussion with MS about creating a co-branded Borland/MS version of VS. I would bet you could convince them to open more of the kimono and make greater business and R&D commitments than those normally available to your average (or even above average) VSIP member.<br><br><br>It's true that you've already paid the price of entry, so to speak, for Galileo IDE, but it's not like you would throw all of that away tomorrow. That IDE would still have at least a couple of years of life even if you decided today to integrate with VS. I can only think of the cool things that you, Dave, Chris, and everyone else could be doing if you weren't so busy with the care and feeding of stuff that already exists in VS. Instead of looking at this from the point of view of "what work we would have to do to integrate with VS?" I think it's worth looking at things from the standpoint of "what concessions could MS offer that would make using VS a better strategy?" Then, on the business side, you try to get those things from MS. If you can accept that there is some set of things MS can do for you that would change the landscape enough that VS integration totally makes semse, then you are accepting that this is a business problem, not a technical one. It's just a matter trying to get the right terms.<br><br><br>There's no doubt that hitching your major releases to VS releases would present new business challenges. While some might say this makes such a plan incompatible with Borland's IDE business model, I would suggest that the model needs changing. I'm not sure the "let's pass an elephant every 12-18 months" model for developers tools is still the best way to go. Breaking out of it would force the business to smooth out the inevitable revenue dips of the annual release model, which might not be such a bad thing. It could also spawn a greater degree of creativity and willingness to take risks on smaller releases where less is at stake -- the best of these could grow into bigger, more important products.<br><br><br> -steveSteve Teixeirahttp://www.codefez.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-75413284410282494712005-02-08T04:09:56.000-08:002005-02-08T04:09:56.000-08:00Steve, You'd think that wouldn't you? Wh...Steve,<br><br><br> You'd think that wouldn't you? While I cannot comment on the specifics, I can most surely say that this has not been the case. What I presented was, in fact, the current state of affairs WRT VS. There have been little to no "consessions" that I'm aware of.Allen Bauernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-75068901409281412642005-02-08T09:40:07.000-08:002005-02-08T09:40:07.000-08:00AllenGood points all. Mind you, I'd have to sa...Allen<br><br><br>Good points all. Mind you, I'd have to say that professional developers would already have Visual Studio: it's part of the various MSDN subscriptions from Professional on up. <br><br><br>All the professional developers I know of already have this (either personally purchased or as part of their work) since it gives them the operating systems, server products, SQL Server, etc, as well as VS. <br><br><br>So it's not as if professional developers would have to specially buy VS for Delphi/VS.<br><br><br>Cheers, JulianJulian Bucknallhttp://www.boyet.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-14844968535801794262005-02-08T09:54:41.000-08:002005-02-08T09:54:41.000-08:00Julian, That is an issue we've yet to qualiti...Julian,<br><br><br> That is an issue we've yet to qualitify. It is unclear that a large enough percentage of the existing Delphi customer-base has VS. In theory, it seems to make sense because the MSDN provides a lot of value for the Windows developers in general. However, I also think there is a large contingent of our customer base that does *not* have VS, nor the MSDN. Especially in the regions outside the US. Which is where a huge portion of Delphi sales are generated.Allen Bauernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-20216016152330114542005-02-08T22:31:48.000-08:002005-02-08T22:31:48.000-08:00It's funny to see the comparison, saying that ...It's funny to see the comparison, saying that Visual Studio Core elements = Galileo Core elements.<br><br><br>Allen, you forgot that in VS-case you don't need to reinvent C# wheels for Galileo IDE, C++, C++ 64-bit, CF designers, it's all already there. And Borland could concentrate on Delphi part and spare resources on C# stuff.<br><br><br>The only real thing Borland has in .NET world is ECO. <br><br>Make it available for all VS.NET developers and it'll make Borland rich.<br><br><br>As for Object Pascal, if it stays in its current shape it will be replaced by fast evolving C# in next few years. <br><br><br>Even here, in Europe, where Borland has its last bastion.John Demigornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-31086844539506675612005-02-09T00:02:41.000-08:002005-02-09T00:02:41.000-08:00John, Did you not read the article? All those bi...John,<br><br> Did you not read the article? All those bits you mention do *not* come with the redist version of VS. Basically what you get is the core I mentioned, the rest is left as an excercise for Borland. I have also outlined the reason Delphi shouldn't be "just a plug-in," which is what it would be relegated to being should we require that the user already have installed VS obtained separately.Allen Bauernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2428374771421713311.post-21821731403273455422005-02-14T02:04:05.000-08:002005-02-14T02:04:05.000-08:00re: Julian Bucknall's post: I am a professiona...re: Julian Bucknall's post: I am a professional developer, and I do not use or own VS, either at home or at my work place, and I doubt that I will any time soon, if ever. We are a Delphi shop, and have no need or desire for VS.<br><br><br>I doubt that I'm the only person in this situation.Benedict Shannonnoreply@blogger.com